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  • The Amicus Interviews: Desiree Jaeger-Fine Esq., Jaeger-Fine Consulting LLC

    The Amicus Interviews: Desiree Jaeger-Fine Esq., Jaeger-Fine Consulting LLC

    The Amicus Interviews are meant for broader discussions on legal education, and the legal profession at the global level. Understandably, a large number of Indian law graduates approach the LL.M., or other master’s courses, as a means to find employment outside the India.

    And one of the people who has a bird’s eye view on this, especially for the US market, is Desiree Jaeger- Fine, the founder of Jaeger-Fine Consulting LLC. As someone who works closely with international LLM graduates in the US, Desiree is an ideal candidate for a macro perspective on recruitments in the US legal industry.

    Desiree also happens to be the founder of LLM-United, a network for international LLM graduates in the US. It was an idea that came to her while she was pursuing an LLM at Fordham Law School, and she sold it a few years after completing the LL.M.

    (Edited excerpts)

    What made you choose a specialized LLM at Fordham? I am especially curious given your previous work as an actress and recording artist.

    I graduated with an LLM in Intellectual Property and Information Technology Law and I chose this specialization precisely because of my background as an actress and recording artist.

    During my time in the entertainment industry, I had managers and agents on whom I had to rely to safeguard my intellectual property rights. In my first major deal for a multi-year TV show, I basically signed away my entire rights, my image, my likeness, my voice, etc. I chose an LLM in Intellectual Property because I wanted to learn the nuts and bolts of this practice area and to learn it from the perspective of a lawyer.

    During my LLM study, I was always able to relate back to my personal experience and see the effect of legal issues on real life.

    “In my first major deal for a multi-year TV show, I basically signed away my entire rights, my image, my likeness, my voice, etc. I chose an LLM in Intellectual Property because I wanted to learn the nuts and bolts of this practice area and to learn it from the perspective of a lawyer. “

    Looking back, what were some of the highlights of the LLM experience?

    The LLM was the best year of my life. During that year, I developed professionally and personally in a way that I could have never imagined. I remember the first day in New York, I was crying every 30 seconds because I missed my family and friends so much. Everything felt strange, every smell, every sight, it wasn’t home. Living through this, making a new place your home, speaking in a language that does not come easily, and navigating a new culture, is tremendously rewarding.

    “Everything felt strange, every smell, every sight, it wasn’t home. Living through this, making a new place your home, speaking in a language that does not come easily, and navigating a new culture, is tremendously rewarding.”

    Furthermore, being in a U.S. law school with other students from different countries and cultures is very stimulating. You learn not only about U.S. law but also about how different cultural backgrounds influence the way the law is approached, defined and analyzed. The interaction with the faculty and administrators is different from Germany as well and I was stunned by how engaged they are with their students.

    I miss my LLM year and whenever I meet someone who is about to do their LLM, I get excited for them because I know what they are about to experience.

    How was the experience of starting, and then selling, LLM-United? What were some of the more unexpected learnings made along the way?

    While I was studying for my LLM, I noticed that I knew the LLM students from my school but not from other schools. I thought that this is a missed opportunity and that we should find a way to get together. LLM-United was a professional online network in which prospective, current and former LLM students could interact and support each other. We had the means of staying connected even upon our return to our home country and thereby created a truly global network of U.S. LLM fellows.

    I sold the platform two years after its launch. I was excited that something I built was of value to someone else. I coded the entire platform myself. I did not know how to code and had to teach myself while studying for the LLM. I was so proud that the platform actually worked and amazed everyday to see that it did not crash.

    A lot of our clients ask us whether an LLM, especially in the US, is worth the cost of attendance. Don’t mean to put you in a spot here, but what do you think? 

    I remember that I was devastated when I first saw the tuition for an LLM. I thought there was absolutely no chance for me to come up with the financial resources. The LLM meant for me a heavy financial burden and risk, but it was worth it. As I said before, the experience is like no other.

    What you will learn during your time in a U.S. law school is worth much more than the cost of attendance. I am not saying that one should take the costs associated with an LLM lightly,  but that one should not take the cost as a reason for not pursuing it. There are many possibilities – scholarships and other assistance – and one should consider all available options to be able to take advantage of this opportunity.

    “What you will learn during your time in a U.S. law school is worth much more than the cost of attendance. I am not saying that one should take the costs associated with an LLM lightly,  but that one should not take the cost as a reason for not pursuing it.”

    Another common question revolves around sitting for the NY Bar – do you have any advice on this, especially when it comes to planning for the exam, and how early one should start the BOLE registration process? 

    This is an important question and I am happy you asked it. I always recommend that the minute the LLM application is completed, one should start collecting the documents for the advanced evaluation by the Board of Law Examiners (BOLE).

    The process of collecting yet another set of documents seems daunting, especially after just having gone through the LLM application process. But the BOLE will need a minimum of 6 months to evaluate whether a foreign attorney is eligible to sit for the NY bar exam. And 6 months is the best-case scenario. It can take much longer than that.

    The easiest way to come up with the required documents is while you are still in your home country. It will be very difficult to accomplish once you are in the middle of your LLM studies, thousands of miles away, in a different time zone. I have seen too many times that those who did not initiate the advanced foreign evaluation early enough were denied eligibility to sit for the bar exam. They could not collect the documents early enough for the BOLE to make a timely decision.

    “I have seen too many times that those who did not initiate the advanced foreign evaluation early enough were denied eligibility to sit for the bar exam. They could not collect the documents early enough for the BOLE to make a timely decision.“

    The inability to sit for the bar exam when you planned to can throw off your entire financial and immigration plan. For most of us, we will have to keep our visa situation in mind. So, I urge everyone to get started on this procedure immediately upon applying for an LLM.

    How do you think international students should go about choosing just where to enrol for an LLM? Rankings like US News are for the JD program, so what should the prospective LLM applicant look at?

    The rankings are not helpful at all for LLM students but unfortunately that is the first thing you find when you do a Google search.

    International students should ask themselves some questions before even looking for a school. What is my interest, what would I like to learn while in the U.S., something specialized like me, IP, or just general U.S. law? Which states can I see myself living in? The U.S. is very big and very different in different regions. Do I want a big law school with 600 LLM students or a smaller one with 20 students? Are there certain professors you would like to work with? Do you want to take a bar exam?

    Only after these and more questions are answered should one start looking for those schools that match our criteria. It is important to narrow down the field, otherwise, one will be overwhelmed.

    “It is important to narrow down the field, otherwise, one will be overwhelmed.”

    In your talks, seminars, and books, you are quite vocal about the need to network, especially for international LLM students – could you share specific examples on how one ought to go about it?

    Networking is such an important and big topic. I don’t think I can do it justice here. Coming from Germany, I was totally puzzled by the concept of networking when I heard it for the first time in the U.S. It did not make any sense to me. Today, I am the author of A Short & Happy Guide to Networking.

    We are social creatures and we need relationships. Networking means nothing other than building and nurturing relationships and friendships within a professional circle. I don’t call my network, my network. I call it my circle of friends because that is what they are. My friends, some of which are lawyers, some are other professionals.

    When I came to NYC I did not know anyone, that is scary and lonely. The first instinct a human being has is to connect with others—to share. If you approach networking from this very basic premise, it will not be difficult or daunting.

    “When I came to NYC I did not know anyone, that is scary and lonely. The first instinct a human being has is to connect with others—to share. If you approach networking from this very basic premise, it will not be difficult or daunting.”

    Lastly, any advice for the Indian law graduate who is considering a master’s but not quite sure whether she should go for it or not?

    Please go for it! You will not regret it!!

  • First Person Accounts: Ojas Patil on the Accelerated JD at James E. Rogers College of Law

    First Person Accounts: Ojas Patil on the Accelerated JD at James E. Rogers College of Law

    First Person Accounts (FPA’s) are meant to provide a first-hand account of law graduates who have pursued, or are pursuing, a post-graduate course (LL.M. or otherwise) from different universities across the world.

    In this edition, I speak with Ojas Patil who decided to opt for a Juris Doctor degree instead of the more common LLM. Studying at the James E. Rogers College of Law, Ojas talks about the Accelerated Juris Doctor programme, why it makes sense for the Indian Law Graduate, and a whole lot more.

    Why a JD and not the traditional LLM? And was the plan to always gain some work experience before enrolling for the JD, or did you realise you wanted to pursue a JD only after you started working?

    I am currently pursuing the Advanced Juris Doctor (AJD) from James E. Rogers College of Law, which is an accelerated version of the traditional Juris Doctor (JD). The way it works is that if a person is a foreign-trained lawyer, that is to say, if the person has acquired a Bachelor of Law from a jurisdiction other than the United States of America, then such a person would be eligible to apply for the AJD.

    Essentially, the AJD saves you a year as compared to the normal JD, since it may be completed in two years instead of three. Twenty-nine credits, which fulfil the credit requirement of one year of JD, are transferred from the foreign legal degree which one possesses.

    “Essentially, the AJD saves you a year as compared to the normal JD, since it may be completed in two years instead of three. Twenty-nine credits, which fulfil the credit requirement of one year of JD, are transferred from the foreign legal degree which one possesses. “

    This is a game-changer since saving a year of tuition fees, room and board expenses and other miscellaneous costs makes a huge difference. The best part about it is that the AJD has the same standing as traditional JD. You attend classes with the regular JD students and would be awarded the regular JD certificate.

    Now with respect to making a choice of pursuing either the JD/AJD or the traditional LLM, I would say that the answer would depend on a person’s final objective. Say for example, a person would like to practice in a specific field such as environment law, taxation, patent law or the like, then it would be advisable to pursue a specific LLM which would offer tailor-made courses providing in-depth knowledge pertaining to that specific field of law.

    However, if your goal is to practice law or seek employment opportunities in the United States then I would highly recommend pursuing either a normal JD through the LSAT route or the AJD if you have already completed LL.B. from India. I say this because an LLM would only grant you eligibility to appear for the bar exams in a handful of states, whereas by pursuing the JD/AJD, you would be eligible to appear for the bar exam in any state. Additionally, I am of the opinion that an added advantage of pursuing the JD/AJD is that you acquire a firm grasp on the foundational courses of the US legal system. Pursuing an LLM would not generally give you that broad exposure into the core areas of law which are tested on the bar.

    “I am of the opinion that an added advantage of pursuing the JD/AJD is that you acquire a firm grasp on the foundational courses of the US legal system. Pursuing an LLM would not generally give you that broad exposure into the core areas of law which are tested on the bar.”

    Lastly, I would prefer pursuing a JD/AJD because the potential employers in a law firm or a corporation prefer JD/AJD graduates over LLM graduates for reasons aforementioned. Therefore, the chances of landing a job after you graduate through JD/AJD are significantly greater in my unbiased opinion than an LLM graduate.

    After graduating from Government Law College, Mumbai, I started working as a Legal Associate at Krishna & Saurastri Associates LLP. The firm offers one of India’s finest Intellectual Property services and I got an amazing platform to get the exposure I needed to hone my legal skills. My portfolio mostly focused on the spheres of trademarks and copyrights. As a Legal Associate, I dealt with anything and everything under the sun with respect to trademarks, from filing applications for registration of trademarks to the post-registration disputes involving infringement, as well as passing off actions and addressing cease and desist notices. It was here where I gained the quintessential skills of research and drafting responses to office actions along with various other contractual agreements, third-party oppositions against the registration of trademarks, and affidavits substantiating and evidencing the use of trademarks. The tight time constraints for completing the drafts and research molded me into an attorney who can multi-task with efficiency and accuracy. The firm’s global clientele permitted me to transact with attorneys all over the world, including in the United States.

    It was while transacting with several US attorneys, that I decided to take a step further in my career. While researching about different options available for law students, I came across the AJD program and was delighted when I got to know about the aforesaid benefits of the program.

    How did you go about preparing for the JD admission process? How long did you spend on LSAT preparations, and any advice for Indian law graduates who are thinking about a JD?

    To be honest, I started my applications for the AJD program quite late in the month of December. I would recommend future students to commence the applications somewhere around the beginning of October since majority of the law school applications start during that time-frame.

    There is quite a dearth of counselling options available for law students who want to pursue JD/AJD, since majority of the students opt for the traditional LLM programs available in several countries, predominantly the United Kingdom. I had consulted with ‘The Chopras’ for assisting me in making my applications to several US law schools and found their assistance helpful. As a caveat, I would caution you that you would need to research on your own to finalize a program and a law school which fits your criteria and objectives. You could then provide the list of law schools to the counsellor and they would make the applications and revise your application materials accordingly.

    One more advantage of pursuing an AJD which I did not mention earlier is that you would not be required to provide an LSAT score through your application. This is because several US law schools have now changed the trend of not relying too much on the LSAT scores. Instead, some of the law schools such as Harvard along with University of Arizona now accept GRE scores instead of LSAT for JD applications. This worked as a boon for me because preparing for the LSAT while working in a demanding law firm position would have been a nightmare.

    “One more advantage of pursuing an AJD which I did not mention earlier is that you would not be required to provide an LSAT score through your application. This is because several US law schools have now changed the trend of not relying too much on the LSAT scores.”

    With respect to your application materials, they particularly include a Statement of Purpose (SOP) which would lay down your intent and purpose for pursuing the degree, Letters of Recommendations (LOR) from your Indian Law School professors and from the Partners of law firms/Legal Counsels from corporations (if you have been working after graduation) and the transcripts from your LL.B. degree.

    I would also recommend that a writing sample from your Indian law school would boost your application. Once you obtain your transcripts from the requisite university, you would then need to send them for evaluation to Law School Admission Council (LSAC). You would need to create an account on LSAC, which is a very convenient portal to make applications to several law schools. Note that there are different accounts for making JD/AJD applications and for LLM applications. You would be required to upload the aforementioned documents on the portal and then make applications to the desired law schools and programs. I would recommend allotting plenty of time for the application process because preparing the application materials takes a lot of time and could make or break your application. So, one should devote sincere efforts and get oneself acquainted with the nitty-gritties of preparing successful application documents.

    How did you go about selecting law schools, and why narrow down on the University of Arizona?

    Personally, I did all my research by visiting the different US law school websites and reading about the courses offered. The website called ‘LLM Guide’ also played a vital part in the research process since it has an effective shortlisting feature through which one can find all the information pertaining to specific LLM courses. It also provides threads on which past, present and future students discuss about their experiences and share information.

    As to the selection for JD/AJD courses, I was focused toward researching for AJD courses and hence ran some searches on Google as well as read a few articles on Quora. The list of law schools offering AJD courses is going up every year, so I would recommend reading news articles which talk about the addition of new law schools which offer the accelerated program.

    I narrowed down on University of Arizona Law for three reasons. First, it is a premier law school consistently featuring in the top 40 law schools in the United States. The quality of students admitted here is quite high and I get to compete with the finest minds. Second, University of Arizona Law has really affordable tuition fee as compared to other law schools in that ranking bracket. Keeping in mind the ever-rising dollar rate, this factor was indeed a pivotal one. And lastly, a familial reason being that my uncle stays in Phoenix which is a two-hour drive from Tucson. It is always advisable to stay close to some family relative as it gives you the moral strength to endure the strenuous law school life. All in all, University of Arizona Law was one of my first choices for AJD given all these factors and I am glad I made it here.

    Did you apply for financial aid of any kind?

    As an incoming AJD student, you would be automatically considered for a merit scholarship. However, one should not expect a substantial amount of scholarship with respect to pursuing AJD. This is because the law school rankings do not fluctuate with respect to the AJD/LLM programs.

    The sole parameter for ranking a law school is with respect to the traditional JD class. Due to this reason, law schools tend to offer nominal scholarship amounts to incoming AJD students. Such a range would lie somewhere between 10-25% of the annual tuition plan.

    Early days yet, but how has the JD experience been thus far? What have been some of the most challenging aspects of the JD course?

    The JD/AJD course is immensely challenging which will test your grit and determination to cross the final line. The experience is exhilarating as well as exhausting. The course is really demanding and keeps students occupied throughout the day with tons of readings and assignments which have to be completed in a very short duration. One should ideally complete the designated readings which are assigned before each class otherwise he would feel lost when the professor gives references to certain things in the readings.

    The system of ‘cold-calling’ may seem daunting at first, but one would get familiar with it pretty soon. All said, every bit of such a rigorous course is worth it and is greatly rewarding in the long run. One develops the quintessential skills which play a pivotal role in practicing effectively as an attorney.

    As for me, I feel that the legal writing and research class has been the most demanding aspect of the law school life. One is required to extensively draft office memorandums and motions for trial as a part of the curriculum along with following a stringent method of citation called ‘Bluebooking’. At first, it is a herculean task for a student to cope up with the class, but the professors are always available to help us. You can ask for their help and assistance at any point of time and they are always more than happy to share their expertise.

    If you could compare the University of Arizona with GLC Mumbai, what are some of the bigger differences between the learning experience at the two institutions? 

    I feel that the biggest difference between Arizona University and GLC, Mumbai, would be the curriculum and method of discourse. The bitter truth about the curriculum which is offered with respect to the law degree in India is that many aspects have become obsolete and are out of date.

    I remember that in my final year of GLC, fellow students used to complain about an elective for Banking Law having several statutes which had already been repealed but were still included in the syllabus. Studying such a part of the curriculum is utterly futile and should be scrapped. In my view, a more practical and practice-oriented approach ought to be adopted by the Universities which would give an insight to the students about the nitty-gritties of implementing the laws which they read about theoretically. The national law schools have set a commendable example of implementing such a system which is in line with the major universities around the world. Instead of being made to mug-up the answers from questions repeated through the last few years, students at the national law schools are intensively trained to study a concept through different perspectives.

    Additionally, the method of discourse is totally different here from that of Indian law schools. As mentioned earlier, a student would be ‘cold-called’ in class and to avoid embarrassment amongst your colleagues, one needs to read thoroughly and between the lines. Professors test your understanding of the concept in several different ways which develops the knack of reading whatever is important and skimming through something which just needs a quick glance. The students are taught directly from the commentaries written by authors who have are authorities over the subjects instead of study guides which the students usually refer to as a last-ditch effort to simply pass that subject. Therefore, a prospective student intending to study at a US law school definitely needs to gear-up for a transition from the Indian study pattern.

    “The students are taught directly from the commentaries written by authors who have are authorities over the subjects instead of study guides which the students usually refer to as a last-ditch effort to simply pass that subject.”

    Again, early days, but what is your reading of the US legal recruitment market when it comes to international graduates (JD or LLM)?

    In my opinion, it is extremely difficult to seek a job in the US legal market. This is because of the stringent immigration laws in place which require sponsorship from the employer for the H1-B visa category. Such a sponsorship is a substantial investment with respect to the amount as well as the documentation and procedure involved. Due to such a cumbersome procedure, employers are usually wary of offering sponsorship to a majority of law graduates who are international graduates.

    Irrespective of this situation, it is my opinion that a JD/AJD candidate generally has much better chances to land a job post graduating than an LLM candidate. I say this based upon my aforesaid reasons differentiating the comprehensiveness of the JD/AJD course as compared to an LLM. There are exceptions for this though. Suppose, if you are an LLM student in an Ivy league college, say for example Columbia which has its own LLM job fair, then there may be genuine job opportunities which could be more concrete than those opportunities for JD/AJD candidates from non-Ivy league law schools.

    Overall, I feel that law graduates have scant opportunities as compared to STEM graduates who have ample of demand in the US recruitment market.

    Lastly, any advice for Indian law graduates who are considering a post-graduate education (JD, LLM or any other) abroad?

    I would recommend Indian law graduates who are considering a post-graduate degree abroad, that they should first meticulously chalk out their career plan and accordingly finalize the appropriate country and degree.

    Pursuing a post-graduate degree abroad involves substantial investment and should therefore be thoroughly thought out. A good way to go about it is asking yourself a question as to where you want to see yourself after completing the degree.

    It is definitely not recommended if your sole aim is to return back to India, unless you aim to join a particular department of a full-service law firm after pursuing an LLM in that specific area of law. This would also be dependent on the foreign clients the law firm caters to as that would broaden your position accordingly.

    Pursuing a foreign degree gives you an all-round exposure in the sense that it moulds you to be proficient in an international setting. However, a caveat to be kept in mind here is that you would be burdened with substantial educational loan. Thus, I would opine that one should try to weigh the options and balance out the pros and cons of each option and make the decision accordingly. I wish all the prospective students good luck for their future endeavours!

  • The Amicus Interviews: Pallavi Sharma on the MSt. and MPP at Oxford University

    The Amicus Interviews: Pallavi Sharma on the MSt. and MPP at Oxford University

    The Amicus Interviews are meant for broader discussions on legal education, and the legal profession. One of the idea behind these interviews is to get a wider understanding of just what the Indian legal graduate is looking for in terms of a post-graduate, international education.

    In fact, one of the goals of Amicus Partners is to explore and chart the non-traditional educational choices made by the Indian law graduate. Which is why I was particularly keen on hearing from Pallavi Sharma, who not only possesses an Indian law degree (NUJS ’13) but has also completed two courses at Oxford University namely, the part-time Master of Studies in International Human Rights Law, (MSt.)  and the  full-time Master’s of Public Policy (MPP).

    The first few years after your undergrad were fairly traditional – you worked as an associate with AMSS. What prompted the move to higher education? And that too, not an LLM, but the part-time Masters in International Human Rights at Oxford University? 

    While at Amarchand, I was toying with the idea of a pursuing a master’s in human rights, but was not ready to take the plunge into the niche field yet, without testing the waters. The MSt in IHRL afforded me this flexibility of dabbling into human rights work, without physically being out of the country and committing to a full-time niche graduate degree.

    “The MSt. in IHRL afforded me this flexibility of dabbling into human rights work, without physically being out of the country and committing to a full-time niche graduate degree.”

    After some intense snooping around, I saw that the faculty at IHRL was stellar and it came with opportunities for scholarships for young human rights advocates. This was an important consideration for me in making the decision.

    You were also a Commonwealth scholar while doing the MSt – any advice on how to go about the application process? Some of the writing requirements are fairly challenging.

    To clarify at the outset, the Commonwealth grant associated with the MSt. is different from the Commonwealth scholarship for graduate studies (the two step process with a national panel interview).

    This grant is renewed for each admission cycle subject to the availability of funds. In the writing sample, it could be useful to draw out from your experiences and make it personal, instead of negating them, especially if you are transitioning into a different field, like I was.

    And at the risk of sounding like a broken record on-guide-to-master’s-applications, it really helps to keep the writing sample clean, and using simple language to express complex ideas. My ex-boss gave me a useful tip on writing pitches – one idea in one sentence, and that seems to have worked for me, in applications and work, generally!

    “My ex-boss gave me a useful tip on writing pitches – one idea in one sentence, and that seems to have worked for me, in applications and work, generally!”

    While pursuing the MSt, you continued working in India with Common Cause as a legal consultant? How easy or difficult was it to balance the two?

    Thankfully, Common Cause was reasonable in terms of time commitment, perhaps because I was used to working the law firm hours. They were also very considerate of my Oxford commitments, and allowed me the flexibility to work from home on submission days or when I was in Oxford.

    I have to add, the MSt. is flexible in terms of geographical location, but as academically demanding as a full-fledged degree at Oxford. For the first year, I was putting minimum 20 hours a week to keep up with the readings and course work. For the second year (when I wrote my dissertation), I spent an average of 30 hours per week.

    “I have to add, the MSt. is flexible in terms of geographical location, but as academically demanding as a full-fledged degree at Oxford. For the first year, I was putting minimum 20 hours a week to keep up with the readings and course work. For the second year (when I wrote my dissertation), I spent an average of 30 hours per week.”

    Looking back, how demanding would you say the course was? And what were the summer sessions at Oxford like?

    As I said, the course is pretty demanding in terms of readings and tutorials. (Now that I have been through it) I would advise applying for it only if you can afford some flexibility at work. This being said, I cannot recommend the course itself enough!

    The faculty works hard to curate it towards the needs of working professionals in terms of the course content and structure. Summer sessions are Oxford’s best neatly packaged in six weeks, with sunshine sprinkled on top! They spread out the course work to give students the opportunity to interact with the faculty, guest lecturers and each other, while leaving sufficient time to explore the city and the University on their own.

    “The faculty works hard to curate it towards the needs of working professionals in terms of the course content and structure. Summer sessions are Oxford’s best neatly packaged in six weeks, with sunshine sprinkled on top!”

    The last week has formal written exams, similar to law schools in India, which could be a little intense for those not used to the format. This said, the summer sessions were, for me, undisputedly the best part about the course.

    Clearly, the MSt. was not the only degree you had in mind. A year after the first master’s, you enrolled for the MPP, again at Oxford – Why?

    When I started the MSt., I had not imagined that I would be going for another master’s this soon. Halfway through the Mst., and a year and half in Common Cause, I saw myself getting increasingly interested in their policy work. I was looking to skill up for the next career move and started generally exploring policy programmes for more formal training.

    Though the MPP was new, I found the programme well-structured, with sufficient exposure opportunities. It was one year, as opposed to most other policy programmes which require a two-year commitment. I was also familiar with the Oxford application process and available scholarships, which, as previously, was extremely important to me. I was determined to not take a loan, especially as policy and human rights studies may not open up profiles which are financially very lucrative in the short run.

    What were some of the highlights of the MPP course? And how did you find yourself using your law degree, as well as the Mst while doing the MPP course?

    This is a question I have been asked by many prospective applicants. The MPP is a professional degree, where the assumption is that you know the basics of your field and the focus is to equip you with the right skills to polish that knowledge and translate it in the policy space.

    Some of the highlights were modules on policy drafting, communications, negotiations and simulations on real world policy challenges like climate change and Brexit. The Blavatnik School of Government also works hard towards bringing in speakers and luminaries to interact with its students, which is fantastic!

    “Some of the highlights were modules on policy drafting, communications, negotiations and simulations on real world policy challenges like climate change and Brexit. The Blavatnik School of Government also works hard towards bringing in speakers and luminaries to interact with its students, which is fantastic!“

    They have a summer project built into the curriculum-somewhat similar to MBA internships, which gives people the flexibility to transition out of the Master’s into the next job profile, or try something completely different that they would not ordinarily do in the course of their regular work (the direction that I went in).

    I built these policy skills on the knowledge acquired in my legal experience and previous master’s. I was given this advice from seniors who had pursued this degree, to have some clarity and knowledge of the foundation you want to rest this policy degree on before jumping in. To that extent, it is very different from an academic degree like BCL or the MSt.

    Slightly off-topic here, but could you tell me a bit about your work on smart cities? 

    Another highlight from my MPP, I was selected for a capstone with the Government and Public Sector Practice of WPP, London for the summer (MPP requires you to do a policy related summer project of your choice and submit a report towards requirements of completion of the degree).

    As I still hadn’t zeroed in on what policy profile I would like to work in the future, I wanted to explore a little and decided to pursue this communications internship. I worked with them to develop an integrated communications strategy that cities could adopt at every stage of transforming into ‘smart cities’.

    I also worked on how countries and cities could brand (or re-brand) themselves to carve a niche space in the market for bringing in tourism, investment etc. The experience was absolutely fantastic, couldn’t have asked for a better environment for exploration!

    Why did you choose an internship at the ILO? And could you share a bit about what kind of work you did there? 

    The ILO had come on my radar after a few interesting courses I did in the MSt. Additionally, my work on a Common Cause petition for rights of domestic workers gave me a closer insight into the ILO mechanisms.

    I applied to the Sectoral Policies department at the ILO for an internship, where I could converge all that I had done so far, in terms of my legal experience and knowledge from the Mst., with my newly cultivated policy skills and because it was one of the few well paid UN internships (see above for how I refuse to pay for experience from my pocket on a human rights salary!).

    I worked on policies for decent work in global agriculture supply chains like tea and palm oil. I am now continuing with the same team as a Junior Technical Officer and currently engaged in policy work on tobacco.

    Presuming you now have a global outlook on things, how do you view the career prospects of the Indian law graduate who is looking to work outside the country? 

    I did not give employability outside India much thought while choosing my masters’, which was not a priority then. I admit, it was an oversight on my part. If you are interested in working outside, look for schools in countries which absorb their graduates. The track record for UK and US is not great in this respect, unfortunately.

    “If you are interested in working outside, look for schools in countries which absorb their graduates. The track record for UK and US is not great in this respect, unfortunately.”

    Lastly, any advice for the Indian law graduate who is looking to pursue higher education? Particularly non-LLM, courses? 

    Some useful things to think about before zooming in on a non-LLM masters, which may not have a set career trajectory: the reason for doing the masters (skilling up, taking a break, feeling clueless, looking for a career shift, academic pursuits etc), faculty, duration, scholarships (if important), where you would like to be after the masters’.

    It’s not important to know exactly what you want to do after graduation, as exploring and experiencing are some of the most important parts of doing these courses abroad, but it helps to have a sense of whether you would want to come back immediately, or dabble internationally before coming back or stay outside the country for good.

    Each person has a different motivation behind going for a master’s. Being brutally honest with yourself about your motivation behind pursuing a master’s outside India can help zooming in on the right programme in the right country. Do reach out to seniors or people who have done the programmes you are interested it for an insider’s opinion.

    “Being brutally honest with yourself about your motivation behind pursuing a master’s outside India can help zooming in on the right programme in the right country. Do reach out to seniors or people who have done the programmes you are interested it for an insider’s opinion.”

    As for the applications themselves, one sentence-one idea and don’t shy away from making them personal. In my experience, they are better received than template driven statements of purpose. Policy schools in general also have a requirement for strong commitment to public service, which needs to be clearly demonstrated in your statement of purpose and writing sample. Commitment to public service is not abandoning all things commercial or business, but rather how you can integrate it with social policy.

  • First Person Accounts: Shaurya Upadhyay on the LL.M. at LSE

    First Person Accounts: Shaurya Upadhyay on the LL.M. at LSE

    First Person Accounts (FPA’s) are meant to provide a first-hand account of law graduates who have pursued, or are pursuing, a post-graduate course (LL.M. or otherwise) from different universities across the world.

    In this edition, Shaurya Upadhyay talks about his days as an LL.M. (Class of ’18) student at the London School of Economics and Political Science. A graduate of the Campus Law Centre at Delhi University, Shaurya chose to specialise in arbitration and dispute resolution.

    (Edited excerpts)

    Not connected to the LLM per se, but what made you look at the LLB after your BA? Did you ever consider applying for the 5-year law course? 

    This question runs with the assumption that decisions such as this happen with a singular reason, within a singular circumstance. In fact, it spans such a long duration, at a time when one’s thought process constantly evolves, that the reality is often extremely fuzzy.

    I started off with the “science” stream in the 12th grade and realising very early on that the subjects weren’t for me. While this eliminated a future in the sciences, I was not sure if I was cut out for any particular profession, (therefore not considering the 5-year law course at that stage), thus I took up the B.A. with a very flexible outlook towards my future, looking at a possible career in international relations, academia, diplomacy or international law. Basically, the future any confused humanities student would look at for themselves.

    Law was never a serious consideration up until my last year of the B.A. where I started working for a few organisations that had a heavy human rights inclination, and the potential of the law solving these issues seemed promising.

    So, a year later when I had to choose between an M.A. in History from JNU and the LL.B. from the Faculty of Law at DU, I chose the latter. Three reasons for that choice (which I till date thank myself for taking) – 1) the practicality of the field was a welcome change after an intensely theoretical 3 years studying history; 2) the possibility of pursuing academia, even an interdisciplinary one, if I so decided; 3) a realisation that the skills I possessed (public speaking, argumentative reasoning, a generally extroverted demeanour) matched the ones required for a successful career in law. Again I cannot say this organised thought process existed at the time I made the decision, but in retrospect, I am sure these became the most important considerations for the same.

    Coming to the LLM, at what stage of your LLB course did you contemplate a master’s? And why go right after your LLB as opposed to working for some time?

    For me the decision to do a master’s degree was made very early on during the LL.B. which was at a time when I was trying to get experience in human rights law.

    I had realised, looking at organisations such as the Vidhi Centre for Legal Policy, and Lawyer’s Collective that almost everyone associated with them had completed their LL.M. in a related field of law.

    Given I was also, at the time, working with an amazingly dynamic lawyer, Ms. Sunita Thawani and her organisation Full Circle on the prevention of sexual harassment at the workplace, I applied to most universities with the aim of working specifically on gender, constitutional and human rights law.

    It made sense to pursue this straight after the LL.B. due to the theoretical nature of the subject and a desire to pursue a PhD straight after. I got my acceptance to the LSE in January, which is when my team and I had started preparing for the oral rounds of the Willem C. Vis Moot. B the time I completed the oral rounds in Vienna in April, I had found my love for International Arbitration.

    Luckily for me the LSE allowed for such a post-facto switch and given I had received a scholarship for my studies, I decided to take up the offer immediately after the LL.B. as opposed to getting a few years of experience as most international commercial/arbitration lawyers would recommend. Another factor was that I had never received any formal training in International Arbitration, as the LL.B. did not offer a course in the subject. It only made sense to pursue a master’s and acquire the necessary academic rigour in the field.

    How did you go about selecting where to apply? And why did you end up choosing LSE?

    I had decided that I wished to pursue my master’s from a UK University for multiple reasons. Firstly, the UK offered very highly ranked institutions which were known for their rich legal history and educational excellence. Secondly, it was far more cost effective than the US, and as someone who did not want to unduly burden their parents financially, it played a major role in making this decision for me. The UK offered several scholarships which added to the financial aspect of the decision. I therefore applied to the three top law schools in the U.K. that offered the subject combinations I was aiming for. This again was at a time when I was applying with the aim of pursuing a degree in human rights law.

    When I decided to switch courses, and opt for studies in International Arbitration instead, I realised that the one offer I had received (from LSE) was the only school of the three (the other two being Oxford and Cambridge) which had a dedicated International Commercial and Investor State Arbitration Faculty. Dr. Jan Kleinheisterkamp at the LSE had a stellar reputation as one of the finest academic minds in the field of international arbitration and contract law.

    The LSE also had a very interesting and highly flexible selection of subjects, which allowed me to specialise in International Business Law, while at the same time explore subjects such as Cyber Law and Comparative Legal Theory.

    Both these factors together with LSEs well established reputation within the legal market convinced me to take up the offer.

    Did you apply for financial aid of any kind? 

    I had applied for a few scholarships at the LSE, and a few offered by Indian organisations. The procedure was very straightforward, and as long as one did not miss the deadlines for the application, the process itself did not require much planning.

    The tricky part during these applications is the manner in which one represents themselves in the statements of purpose and the subsequent interviews. I had been warned that the scholarship process can almost always weed out people trying to “fake it till they make it”, as they have been around for a while and the selection committees have seen every trick in the book when it comes to exaggerated applications.

    My applications therefore were brutally honest about my work, my aspirations, and my limitations as a first-generation lawyer. The scholarship market tends to be a numbers game, since the competition comprises several hundred exceptionally deserving candidates, and a lot depends on how well one’s representations resonate with the selection committee.

    “My applications therefore were brutally honest about my work, my aspirations, and my limitations as a first-generation lawyer. The scholarship market tends to be a numbers game, since the competition comprises several hundred exceptionally deserving candidates, and a lot depends on how well one’s representations resonate with the selection committee. “

    I thankfully received the JN Tata Endowment Scholarship, which as an organisation has given constant support, both financially and morally, through my entire year in London.

    How was the LLM experience at LSE? Any experiences/memories that really stand out when you look back at that one year?

    In two words, “life changing”. I have been in a fair number of institutions (4 to be precise), but what stood out here was how the entire system was designed towards enhancing the student experience. The course choice, the quality of teaching, the focus on producing high quality work, and most importantly the level of interaction with the professors, all of whom were remarkably approachable and always helpful. Quite a few memories come to mind when I look back at the year, and it feels unfair to select one over the other.

    My experience working with Dr Jan Kleinheisterkamp would perhaps be the most enriching and humbling experience of all. My classes with Dr Jacco Bomhoff and Dr Andrew Murray also stand out as amazing and intellectually stimulating.

    My work with the LSE teams for the Willem C. Vis Moot (both as a speaker in 2018 and as a coach in 2019) stands out as memorable. I got to interact with some inspiring coaches and work with some extremely diligent colleagues with a work ethic one can only aspire towards.

    As the President of the International Arbitration society too (a position I was gratefully to be elected to), I worked with an amazing committee and while the work we did was intense, we had our fair share of fun, amazing post-conference banquets, and a lot of photos to remember this time by.

    What are the advantages of a specialised LLM as opposed to a general LLM?

    The LSE does not offer a specialised LL.M. similar to other Universities which would admit students into the specialisation at the time of admissions. Their system notes that if a student has opted for 4 courses in a particular field of law, they can opt for their LL.M. degree to read as a specialised one. However, the student has the freedom to opt out of this ‘specialisation’ and/or take up other courses not under their specialisation, if they would so choose.

    For me, I started the year with a balance of 4 business law and 3 legal theory courses. My inspirations however changed over the first few months, and I ended up opting for Cyber Law and Investment Treaty law instead, thereby tailoring my degree to suit my evolve needs. I believe LSE is unique in offering such high levels of flexibility in course choice.

    The advantages of having one’s LL.M. degree read a specialisation are very subjective, and there is no one right answer. I believe it shows a sense of commitment to a field of law, which might be important to certain employees/organisations.

    But in reality, one always has the opportunity to represent this commitment in other ways, so I wouldn’t say there exists a unique benefit to this specialisation (especially not at a university like the LSE). I do however know that other universities treat specialisation in a wholly different manner, where the specialised degree would entail more exposure to a specialised faculty, and certain tailor-made opportunities. LSE allows its students to lay their own path.

    Post the LLM, you have managed to secure a number of internships, and RA’s – was this an easy process? 

    No. It also wouldn’t qualify as a necessarily difficult process. It only becomes hard to access as it requires specific knowledge of one’s own field of practice within the law. The field of law tends to be extremely broad and diverse, and the biggest mistake one can make is to take advice from someone in one field of law and transpose it onto another.

    “The field of law tends to be extremely broad and diverse, and the biggest mistake one can make is to take advice from someone in one field of law and transpose it onto another.”

    When I reached London, there was ample information available on a general practice of the law, but as someone who had decided on international arbitration as their chosen field, advice to apply for vacation schemes and training contracts ended up wasting a considerable amount of time which could have been utilised to gain experience at, let’s say, a barristers chamber with a specialised arbitration practice.

    I currently hold two offers of internship, one from WilmerHale from their International Arbitration group and another from Debevoise and Plimpton from their International Disputes group.

    The process to secure these (given my unique circumstances) was time consuming and required immense patience. It was only after spending months working with the International Arbitration society and on the Vis moot that I met a certain partner heading the arbitration practice at a city law firm who agreed to give me an opportunity to intern at his firm.

    I believe that this initial professional break, combined with the constant academic mentorship from my professor, made subsequent work experiences possible. What probably also helped was my unwavering interest in this one field of law which helped me streamline my own efforts. What followed was a 9-month research assistantship with my Professor which then led to the current offers.

    What is your reading of the UK market when it comes to recruiting international LLM graduates?

    This question is problematic as it risks reducing an extremely complicated process (i.e. gaining employment) to a single economic indicator (i.e. the job market).

    If I were to base my opinion on my observations, there a plenty of jobs in the UK and law firms are constantly in the process of hiring new associates at all levels. However, that doesn’t even vaguely mean that it is easy to get a job in the UK. One has to consider not only the market in the UK for international LLM graduates as a general term but specify within this exploration which ‘international LL.M. graduate’ this would be.

    Factors such as one’s home jurisdiction, post qualification experience, institutional reputation, grades, skill sets, languages, international experience etc [play an important role]. A very small number of Indian LL.M. students do get hired every year at junior associate positions at law firms, or as consultants to international organisations but I have noticed that almost all of them have something unique to offer on one of these fronts. I would recommend studying the profiles of these individuals and trying to assess what worked for them (with the realisation that not all that they have to offer is available on public profiles).

    Lastly, any advice for the Indian law graduate who is considering a master’s abroad?

    Two things.

    First, Get yourself a mentor! I cannot stress the importance of this enough, but it is really important that you find someone who is on a similar path as you are, or someone that is uniquely placed to answer your innumerable questions about your career, personal life, finances, opportunities, and convince them of your vision. If you can convince one such person of your commitment and zeal, chances are that others will be able to see this vision too. And always give back to this process by mentoring your juniors at whatever stage you’re in.

    “It is really important that you find someone who is on a similar path as you are, or someone that is uniquely placed to answer your innumerable questions about your career, personal life, finances, opportunities, and convince them of your vision.”

    Second, only you know your entire story.

    The reasons for you to do the LL.M will always be unique to you, so you must always look at this bigger picture, and use external advice (including this interview) only to fill informational voids. Make sure you question everything, and don’t rush into the process. The LL.M. is an investment, and you should have hedged this investment with a plan B, C and D.

    Lastly, everyone faces failures. Don’t let the pristine CVs and LinkedIn profiles of individuals make you believe that this is their entire story. Keep trying your best to make it, and a time will come when you will. Just make sure you know what you want from life, and work towards that.

  • First Person Accounts: Vikram Koppikar on the LL.M. from University of Durham

    First Person Accounts: Vikram Koppikar on the LL.M. from University of Durham

    First Person Accounts (FPA’s) are meant to provide a first-hand account of law graduates who have pursued, or are pursuing, a post-graduate course (LL.M. or otherwise) from different universities across the world.

    In this edition, I get Vikram R. Koppikar to share his thoughts on a post-graduate education in the UK. With an LLB from Mumbai University (Class of ’97), Vikram worked for nearly seven years before embarking on his master’s, an LL.M. from the University of Durham. A Senior Legal Manager at TCS, Vikram discusses his learnings from the LL.M. and the advice he has for Indian law graduates who are considering a master’s degree.

    I know this is a while back, but what got you thinking about an LLM, and how did you go about selecting just where you wanted to study?

    I had a few years of work experience prior to considering my LLM. I worked in a law firm that had handled some overseas clients and was keen on getting international exposure.

    I chose the UK, as this is the “seat” of common law, on which Indian legislation is also based.

    What got you to narrow down on Durham?

    I had searched various “ratings” of UK Universities, including the Guardian and the Times ranking. Durham’s law department had a 5* rating, which is the highest given. Additionally, it had the LLM in the “International Commercial Law”, which was of interest to me.

    Did you seek financial aid of any kind?

    No, I had money saved up, and my parents offered to aid the rest.

    Looking back, what were some of the biggest learnings made during your time at Durham? 

    My learnings, both for better and worse are as follows:

    • Brush up on your EU legislation (the LLM has a lot of compulsory EU law, and the nature of EU courts, judgments is varied from Indian systems; though, with Brexit, I do not know if this holds).
    • The LL.M. offered multiple courses (of varying course credits), in my zeal to learn as much as I could, I took on a large number of courses, so choose wisely!
    • Keep the dissertation in mind, and start working with your preferred faculty/guide early on in the year.
    • Indian content: Although this had a fair bit of International legislation to cover, an Indian aspect was lacking in course content in my LLM. While this may not bother some, it was a concern for me.

    Now that you have reached a fairly senior position, do you think an LLM helps in improving one’s employment prospects?

    I ended up returning to the in-house sector and in that regard, have perhaps gained to a lesser degree from my LLM than someone who may end up in a law firm scenario.  Having said that, I believe that the UK LLM has held me in good stead with employability with UK based corporations based in India.

    I was once called to an interview, where the interviewer, was also a Durham grad (I ended up getting that job). As part of my current role with TCS, I handle the Middle East region, which is inundated with lawyers from the UK, and for what it’s worth, there is some “respect” allowed for a lawyer that has been UK educated in such circles.

    “As part of my current role with TCS, I handle the Middle East region, which is inundated with lawyers from the UK, and for what it’s worth, there is some “respect” allowed for a lawyer that has been UK educated in such circles.”

    Lastly, any advice you have for Indian law graduates who are considering a master’s course outside the country?

    My advice is as follows:

    1. Motive: Know what you seek to gain out of the course – Is it a wider understanding of a topic, future employability or the pursuit of additional accreditation which is de rigueur for Indian students. Will the LLM help you achieve your long term goal, is a question only you can answer.
    2. Employability:  Certain foreign jurisdictions allow for a time-bound work permit, once you complete your Masters, others are guarded in allowing foreign students to work. Keep in touch with prospective employers, gauge whether they consider an LLM as worthwhile.
    3. Choice of University/Topic: All things considered, Universities have brand value and consider choosing an LLM in a University, which has such recall. It leads to an embarrassing interview if your employer is unaware of your university!
    4. Timing – My suggestion would be to consider an LLM after putting in a few years at work rather than the de rigueur jump post one’s LLB.From personal experience, my work experience allowed me to contribute more to discussions and writings, especially the IP related courses, as I had been an IP lawyer for some time previously.