First Person Accounts(FPA’s) are meant to provide a first-hand account of Indian graduates who have pursued, or are pursuing, a post-graduate course (LL.M. or otherwise) from different universities across the world.
Tenzin Kunsel is currently an LL.M. candidate at Fordham Law School, and a 2017 graduate from the M.S. Ramaiah College of Law in Bangalore. In this FPA, Tenzin shares his reasons for narrowing down on Fordham, the LL.M. experience thus far, and a whole lot more.
Tenzin Kunsel
At what point in your career did you consider a foreign master’s? Did you ever consider applying for the LLM right after your undergrad?
The idea of doing LLM in United States was always there in the back of my head but I wanted to have work experience before I go for my LLM. Having work experience helps you to get a better law school and also when you look for any job here in the United States.
So, I am not saying applying for the LLM just after your graduation is wrong, I just feel having a year or two of work experience has advantage over others while doing an LLM.
Fordham is a very interesting choice – what got you looking at this particular law school, and what were some of the other (if any) schools that you shortlisted?
I had few law schools in mind when I was applying for my LLM. Since I wanted to see myself working in the New York City, I cut down the list to those law schools which are in New York City. Location of the school plays an important role. In the US, each State is sovereign, has their own constitution, rules, bars and way of practicing is different
Fordham is one of most reputed law schools in United States and especially in New York City. Name and ranking of the law school matters a lot. Among the many law schools which were equally good, Fordham gave me the best offer which I couldn’t refuse.
The law school I shortlisted were Fordham Law, NYU School of Law, Cardozo in New York City. UC Berkeley, Georgetown University, UCLA.
Did you apply for/receive any financial aid?
Yes, Fordham offered me the best merit scholarship among many others.
Any advice on how to go about the LLM application process itself? For example, how much time do you think one should devote to the personal statement?
First collect the information about the law schools, and your master concentration. Then put down the list of law schools of your choice. Prepare your documents one by one including SOP, Degree Certificate, Marks Sheet, TOEFL score etc, and start sending the applications. You have to create LSAC account for some law schools, and for some you can send the application directly to the law schools.
Keep in mind the deadlines.
It takes roughly 2-3 months with the law school and once you are admitted, you will have visa and immigration work which will take more time.
What are some of your expectations from the Fordham LLM? And have any of these expectations been met?
Yes, the Fordham faculties and lecturers are really impressive and cooperative in many ways. So, I feel education quality herein Fordham law school has met my expectations. The law school offers an amazing campus with a good library, and places to meet. The school is situated at the one of the best locations possible. You will have access all that New York City has to give including the major courts, law firms, non-profit organization etc.
In a similar vein, what have been some of the most rewarding aspects of the LLM thus far?
First thing first, meeting students from different countries from all over the world with different law background is such a nice feeling. You will learn a lot of new things. New York City itself is a rewarding enough, you will get the feeling of “lets build the dream”.
Lastly, any advice for the Indian law grad who is considering a master’s abroad?
I know it’s a lot of work and a heavy investment but if you really want to have an international mind and dreams then I think you should try. Those investments will pay off in no time.
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For those looking to pursue an LL.M. abroad, there is an interesting event scheduled for tomorrow, March 12 at 18:30 hours (IST). The Law Schools Global League is hosting a virtual LL.M. fair with participation from twenty law schools all over the world.
Here is a list of schools participating in the event:
– IE Law School (Spain)
– Koç University (Turkey)
– Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law (United States)
First Person Accounts(FPA’s) are meant to provide a first-hand account of Indian graduates who have pursued, or are pursuing, a post-graduate course (LL.M. or otherwise) from different universities across the world.
Shweta Duggal graduated from the National Law University Delhi in 2013 and worked for six years before embarking on an LL.M. at Berkeley Law. In this interview, she discusses the cost benefit analysis involved in her decision to enrol for the course, the LL.M. experience itself and passing the California Bar, as well as how foreign trained lawyers can make the most of the LL.M.
Shweta Duggal
Let’s start with the California Bar first – was the plan behind the LL.M. to gain foreign qualification? And if so, did you consider any other countries to apply to?
Honestly, I went into this for a different reason. My plan behind the LL.M. was to break into the foreign legal market. To give the California Bar Exam – and this is exclusive to California – foreign trained attorneys are allowed to give the Bar Exam without having a degree (J.D. or LL.M.) from a U.S. university.
So, my plan behind the LL.M. had no bearing on whether I wanted to give the California Bar Exam.
Yes, my long-term plan is to work in the U.K. so during the application phase, I had concentrated more on the U.K. universities – LSE, QMUL, UCL. However, Berkeley Law has always been my dream law school and I just did not have it in me to pass up on the opportunity.
What were some of the expectations that you had from the LL.M. experience, and looking back, were these expectations met?
Given that the pandemic hit during my LL.M., of course, my expectations were not fully met.
However, it was still an enriching experience and one of the best decisions I’ve made for my professional and personal growth.
Coming into this, I had many expectations. I wanted to meet and engage with the brightest legal minds over AI, Tech, Trademarks and other areas to which I’m not exposed. I wanted to be involved in as many networking events and talks hosted by attorneys working in the BigLaw firms. I also wanted to explore and see what San Francisco and other near-by cities on the West Coast had to offer. Most of them were cut off due to the pandemic and my semester being virtual.
However, one of the most positive things about my LL.M. experience, that even the pandemic could not take away, was meeting like-minded people from around the world. It’s funny how similar two people from different countries and cultures can be.
I’ve surely made friends for life.
Given that you had 5+PQE when you applied for the LL.M., was there a cost-benefit analysis made? Looking back, do you think there is a “right” time to apply for a foreign LL.M.?
Most definitely a cost-benefit analysis was made. It’s very easy to get sucked into a comfortable monthly salary in your bank account lifestyle. During the LL.M. application phase, I was working independently and my practice was growing each month.
So, I had to seriously consider the fact that I will be leaving that comfortable bubble and perhaps re-start my career in another country all together. However, looking at the holistic picture of how pursuing an LL.M. aligns with my long-term goal was helpful.
One of the most consistent pieces of advice that I keep hearing from others is that one should get some work experience before applying for an LL.M. However, I see this a bit differently. It’s difficult to say what’s the right time to apply – this is an individualistic approach. It depends on why you’re pursing a foreign LL.M. If your sole goal is to work abroad i.e., in any area of the law, then an LL.M. right after your graduation is completely fine. In fact, you are not limited to any profile then.
But if its only for your academic interest, then yes I would say that it’s better to get some work experience to know where your interests truly lie. Sometimes what you find interesting in law school might not be all that interesting when practicing in that area.
An LL.M. is a costly affair and you would want to make the most of it.
On the LL.M. itself, what got you to choose Berkeley in particular?
As said earlier, Berkeley Law has always been my dream law school. My work back in Delhi was primarily focused on Intellectual Property, and Berkeley Law is known to have an exceptional I.P. faculty and offers a diverse selection of courses surrounding I.P. pertaining to technology, pharmaceuticals, entertainment and more.
Other than that, the location played a part too – who wouldn’t want to live and study in California!
Did you apply for/receive any financial assistance?
No, I did not apply for any financial assistance. I did receive financial aid from Berkeley Law for the professional track LL.M. However, I chose the traditional track LL.M. and was unable to transfer that. Specific to Berkeley Law, you are automatically considered for financial aid and depending on how strong your profile is, you are chosen for the aid.
Coming back to the California Bar Exam – at what point of time did you start preparing for the exam? Did you begin any of the documentation even before you moved to the US? Any advice for prospective applicants?
California Bar Exam is the toughest bar exam in the U.S. You would want to study as much and get enough practice before giving it. There is a lot of rote learning involved. You are essentially learning the main areas of the U.S. Law in a few months as opposed to J.D. students who’ve studied it over a course of three years.
Having said that, you don’t want to start too early. With my bar exam – which kept getting postponed because of the pandemic – I had essentially started too early and I had to revisit a lot of the material. You would want to avoid doing that since you need to concentrate more on practicing the MBEs (multiple choice questions), essays and the Performance Test.
The ideal time to start would be 2.5 months before the exam.
Everyone has a different style of studying and what works for them. You must stick to that. This is not the time to experiment. So stick to your style of studying. Other than that, I would highly recommend enrolling for one of the commercial bar prep courses – Themis and Barbri being the best out there. These courses provide you with short online lectures, handouts, outlines and practice MBEs and essays. They also help you organize your study plan so you don’t lose time on doing it yourself.
I had enrolled with Themis and I do owe them a lot for helping me pass the California Bar Exam. Other than that, I would also suggest enrolling with Adaptibar for additional MBE practice. Please know that MBEs are extremely tricky and you must get as much practice with them to get a hang of it.
I did not begin my documentation before moving to the US – I was still unsure about my plan to give the Bar Exam at that point. However, it is advisable to begin the documentation process as early as possible. If you’re a foreign attorney applicant, one needs to get a ‘good standing certificate’ from their respective Bar Council.
Looking ahead, how do you think foreign trained lawyers can make the most of their US LL.M. experience when it comes to finding employment? Any words of wisdom to share here?
Networking! Networking! Networking! The U.S. legal market is extremely competitive and LL.M.s do not have a level playing field. We are often, if not always, pitted against J.D.s. In terms of finding employment.
Reach out to the LL.M. alumni from your respective university and who working in the U.S. It is of utmost importance that we understand how to approach the market and what worked for them. Since they would’ve been in the same position at one point, the LL.M. alumni is always ready to help out as much as they can.
Keep interacting with your professors. In most universities, professors have office hours. Attend those! It’s great for your visibility and they offer some of the best advice with regard to employment since some of them have worked in law firms previously.
Be in touch with the Career Development Office and have them vet your resume. But most importantly, attend networking events in your university. It could be in the form of a mixer or a talk by an attorney on a specific subject.
Try approaching the attorneys at the end of the talk and have a general chat or ask questions about the specific subject (if it aligns with your interest, of course) and try to remain in touch.
You need to be patient with the recruitment process in the U.S. Make connections and maintain them. It won’t help overnight but you might never know when it will click.
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Helen Leungholds a Bachelor of Social Sciences (Sociology & International Relations) from the University of Hong Kong and Master of Science in Refugee and Forced Migration Studies from the University of Oxford, United Kingdom. She is currently working as a paralegal at Patricia Ho & Associates.
In an interview conducted by Natalie (Huen) Wong, Helen discusses her role as a paralegal, the world of refugee rights, her Oxford experience, and a whole lot more.
Helen Leung
Kindly tell our readers something about yourself, your early years and your journey in the profession.
I think my life history in my early years is very much intertwined with my professional journey. I was born in Australia, and spent my childhood largely moving between Beijing and Hong Kong because of my dad’s work.
I grew up in a multicultural environment having attended both local and international schools, including four different primary schools (and thankfully only one secondary school).
In this sense, navigating the contours of migration has always been pretty central to my life experience. Service was another core part of my upbringing. I have fond memories of participating in community service projects around Beijing, as well as visiting rural schools and villages across northern China.
My professional interest in supporting vulnerable migrant populations was probably a merge of these two aspects of my upbringing!
What motivated you to become involved in human rights work?
During my undergraduate studies in Hong Kong, I spent a lot of time hanging out with the asylum seeker and refugee community in the city. Despite our differences, we bonded through our ‘rootlessness’ and common search for home, identity and belonging in an age of mobility and globalization.
Yet, it struck me that while I was a ‘global elite’ who chose to migrate, they were ‘victims’ of immobility at the opposite end of the spectrum. Ironically, the difference in our life chances meant that while I could gather the attention to advocate for their justice, their voices were largely silenced even though they lived and breathed these injustices.
This motivated me to reflect more on how the voices of marginalized populations can be better heard and their rights protected.
It is said that the world is like a human body. Each individual member of humanity is part of the body politic and if one member is in distress or affliction, all the other members must necessarily suffer.
Recognizing our interdependence and attending to the welfare of one another is a large part of what human rights advocacy means to me.
I feel like the job of a paralegal is rarely talked about in the legal industry. Can you tell me why you decided to become a paralegal and what are your responsibilities or job duties as a paralegal?
It was somewhat coincidental actually. At the time, I was hoping to move back to Hong Kong in order to spend more time with my family. I was turned down for a position that I had applied for in the non-profit sector; but they referred me to a university professor for academic research opportunities, who then referred me to a human rights lawyer for a paralegal role at a newly established law firm.
It had never occurred to me to work in the legal industry before then! But I am grateful to have stumbled upon this opportunity and I have been learning a lot on the job since.
In my role as a paralegal, my focus has been on handling refugee and human trafficking cases. My job includes seeing clients, taking statements, conducting legal research, drafting legal submissions, supervising interns, billing (and down to shredding paper and buying toilet paper as we are a small firm).
I also organize legal trainings for NGO practitioners; and am working on several research projects mapping the modus operandi of drug and sex trafficking in Hong Kong. The nature of this field of law and the set-up of the firm has enabled me to play a diverse role as a paralegal. I am very lucky to be part of a dynamic and innovative team.
What is/are the biggest challenge(s) that you have encountered in the field of human rights work?
Financial resources are scarce for human rights work. It is also easy to feel that our efforts are insignificant and little can be done to push for long-term change. When we become disillusioned about what certain efforts can achieve, the challenge is then to reflect and redirect ourselves to develop a better solution.
It has been a constant process of learning and relearning what it means to be engaged in this field of work.
I see that you have a lot of international work experience, including in Ghana, Tanzania and Syria. Can you tell me more about your experiences there and how these have inspired/impacted you?
As a young adult, I wanted to see the world for myself which led me on many adventures exploring South America, Europe, Africa and the Middle East. Although challenging at times, I enjoyed the steep learning curve that comes with working in different humanitarian contexts.
For example, I had the opportunity to lead a research project on internally displaced persons and returnees in North-east Syria. The opportunity to visit Raqqa and Hassakeh, former IS-held territories, was surreal. It was heartbreaking to see the destruction of the conflict.
There is a lost generation of children who have only known war, and families are struggling despite their unimaginable resilience. While each country’s realities vary widely, I was inspired by the many individuals and organizations committed to building their communities.
The people, places and lessons will always hold a special place in my heart.
You have also done a Master of Science in Refugee and Forced Migration Studies at the University of Oxford. Can you tell me more about your thesis, what prompted you to research on that topic, and your experience in Oxford in general?
My thesis was a Foucauldian discourse analysis on the genealogy of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees’ (UNHCR) approach to ‘humanitarian innovation’. In other words, I explored how power has shaped the way in which the concept of ‘innovation’ has emerged within the humanitarian field and how/why this concept has evolved over time.
A highlight of my research was travelling to UNHCR’s headquarters in Geneva to interview the staff that spearheaded the Innovation Unit within the UN system.
Studying at Oxford’s Refugee Studies Centre was truly inspiring as it was the place where forced migration studies, a niche but expanding field, was founded. My professors and classmates led some of the most cross-cutting research in the world.
Needless to say, the program was academically vigorous, and I have never worked so hard in my life! I also enjoyed all the perks of the ‘Oxford experience’ such as punting, college formals, and attending graduation ceremonies conducted in Latin.
What is your advice for aspiring human rights lawyers/practitioners, especially those who are wishing to practice in Hong Kong?
I would encourage aspiring human rights practitioners to gain exposure to different disciplines beyond law, such as experience in social work, education, technology, etc. Beyond direct representation and litigation before the Court, it is also about how we collaborate with other stakeholders such as NGOs, universities, and government actors to raise awareness and develop institutional capacities to build meaningful change.
Taking an interdisciplinary approach enables us to be more effective in how we approach and use the law as tools for change in Hong Kong.
It is also important to seek to understand the communities that we strive to support. There are many facets to understanding the access to justice. For example, what ‘justice’ means to a survivor of human trafficking may be very different to what legal redress looks like on paper. Survivors may not report their case to the authorities due to the fear of self-incrimination or reprisal from their perpetrators.
They may also be suffering from mental health conditions such as depression, anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) due to their past experience of exploitation, or be at risk of facing system-induced trauma from undergoing lengthy legal proceedings. It is important to approach clients through their lens and recognize their varied needs, such as financial or psychological, beyond offering legal solutions. In this sense, aspiring human rights practitioners would benefit from gaining a more holistic perspective in their learning and practice.
People always say that human rights has no market in Hong Kong. Can you expand on what you think are pressing human rights issues in Hong Kong?
In my area of practice on immigration, there is a lot of work that can be done. Modern slavery is a serious but underreported issue in Hong Kong. The limited legal and policy framework means that victims of forced labour, sex trafficking and/or criminal exploitation often fall through the cracks.
In addition, foreign domestic workers are vulnerable to employment rights violations especially when they are tied to debt bondages or face the pressure to remit earnings to support their families back home.
Refugee protection is also a concern. Recently, the Immigration (Amendment) Bill 2020 proposes new reforms to Hong Kong’s unified screening mechanism of non-refoulement protection claimants. This includes limiting procedural safeguards such as shortening the period for claimants to appeal their decisions, granting permission for authorities to conduct proceedings in a language other than the one the claimant requested, and strengthening the basis of immigration detention.
It is concerning that the general attitude behind these proposed amendments, including the labelling of non-refoulement claimants as “illegal migrants” and “overstayers”, runs contrary to the principles of non-refoulement protection enshrined in human rights treaties and conventions.
I know that you are very experienced in NGO work. Can you comment on the role played by NGOs in Hong Kong in advocating for human rights?
There are many community-based NGOs in Hong Kong that work with vulnerable and often hidden populations on a day-to-day basis, such as victims of sexual exploitation. NGOs have a wealth of knowledge and insights on the challenges faced by these populations which can be useful to policymakers.
Therefore, I believe NGO efforts can be maximized when they are able to effectively collaborate with other stakeholders. For example, through evidence-based research, NGOs can help identify gaps and provide practical recommendations to support government decision-making.
Lastly, how do you think the Hong Kong government can improve its human rights protection?
Other than enacting new legislation, I think it is also important to strengthen the way we implement our current protection mechanisms in Hong Kong. Through my work, I have come to observe how the “human” element behind our governance systems can be overlooked. Behind the bureaucracies, government officials and adjudicators are the ones that make the day-to-day decisions to translate laws and policies into practice.
Oftentimes, barriers to victim protection can come down to a lack of awareness/understanding, cultural insensitivities or the absence of dialogue. Yet, from a young age, we learn that we should treat others the way we want to be treated.
When the victims’ stories become relatable, and when we see them as part of “our own” through our common humanity; it becomes easier to overcome these barriers and allow different stakeholders to work more collaboratively in protecting vulnerable populations.
(Natalie is a final-year law student (LLB) from Durham University and a part of the UPeksha Mentorship Programme)
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As most readers know by now, First Person Accounts (FPA’s) are meant to provide a first-hand account of Indian law graduates who have pursued, or are currently pursuing, a post-graduate course (be it an LL.M. or otherwise) from different schools across the world.
The FPA (International) is meant to broaden this scope somewhat, getting non-Indian law graduates to discuss their LL.M. experiences in different law schools from across the world. The idea behind the FPA(I) interviews is to help the Indian law graduate better understand her potential cohort, and also expand the LL.M. conversation in general.
Liana Cercel is an LLB graduate from City University London who completed the TADS LL.M. programme from Sciences Po in 2018. In this interview, she shares her reasons for studying law, her interest in international arbitration, and why it is so important to not give up.
Liana Cercel
Going slightly back in time, what got you interested in the study of law? And, looking back, what have been some of the most rewarding aspects of your study?
My father is a business and real estate consultant, often engaged in legal proceedings and working closely with lawyers. Ever since I could remember, he used to drive me to school and would share the details of his projects, asking for my opinion and debating his ideas, strategies and options with me.
He has a natural talent for deconstructing and explaining complex topics in a simple, comprehensive way (much needed for a 7-year old), so I was able to genuinely engage. This gave me the opportunity to develop my critical thinking from a young age, tackle legal issues, make connections and speak my mind.
I got hooked!
I genuinely wish I could remember the exact ‘lightbulb’ moment when I decided to set course for becoming a lawyer, but I cannot. Law has always been it for me, simply because it engages and challenges my cognitive and creative abilities in a very fulfilling way. The most rewarding aspect of my studies and career was definitely the network of incredible people I have had the opportunity to build, who continuously inspire, guide and motivate me.
It makes me proud to be part of their world.
Right after your LLB from Sciences Po, you opted for the TADS course – what was it about international arbitration that you found most appealing? And were there any other LLMs that you applied for?
Moving to Paris for an exchange program in my third year and being immersed in international law studies constituted a perfect context for discovering arbitration. This unique universe unfolded before me as I learned about famous inter-State proceedings and procedures (hence why, I believe, I remain most passionate about investment arbitration).
The main thing that fascinates me about international arbitration is its versatility with respect to the subject matters it engages. I am also a fierce advocate of its crucial role in providing an apolitical forum with a functional and flexible dispute resolution system for high-stakes, important issues dealing with, for example, corruption, renewable energy reforms, environmental damage and strategic infrastructure projects.
I clicked with the SciencesPo culture and its distinguished faculty, and really wanted to return for more. It was not only the only masters’ I applied to, but my only post-graduation plan at that point.
Looking back, I realise the pull I felt towards this practice must have been so huge, enough to make me put all my eggs in one basket. I was the youngest of my class, as part of the first ever edition of the masters’ programme, and had no real legal professional experience !
Being granted this opportunity was a game changer and I have never looked back. It is also, to me, a firsthand example of why this field needs to give chances to its young professionals more often.
How was the LL.M. experience itself? Again, with the benefit of hindsight, what have been some of the most useful lessons picked up through the TADS course?
The LL.M. was intense, but extremely rewarding. Its main advantage to me was connecting us with all the ‘titans’ of international arbitration – renowned, experienced professionals we would have never realistically had the opportunity to meet and actively engage with otherwise.
The course was also defined by a hugely advantageous practical component, as we spent over 120 hours in over 12 law firms and arbitration institutions, being given a run through of all the procedural and substantive issues that arbitration practitioners deal with most often. Having successful professionals and esteemed academics from around the globe teaching us the ABCs of arbitration made me feel professionally equipped and confident in taking on the challenges of starting a career in this field.
The most important lesson I have learned from the course is the importance of networking and making the most out of every second of wisdom and experience that is imparted, because I have banked on them in my professional career afterwards.
Finally, an invaluable perk that the TADS LL.M. provided me with was getting to meet most of the teams I later worked with and engage with them, and I think that truly helped me land my first job.
You also managed to qualify as a US attorney in the State of New York – could you tell me a bit about the process involved, and how you managed to qualify without a US LLM? [I understand that this may be a bit of a long answer so please feel free to ignore]
I was eligible to take the New York bar by virtue of my English law LLB degree. ‘Managed’ is a very good word to use, as the process is indeed strenuous. In short, what I would recommend to anyone embarking on this path is to be organised and start early. Start by checking and confirming your eligibility, it should only take a month and mainly requires your law school (and masters’ university, if applicable) to send a letter to the New York State Board of Examiners confirming your completion of the relevant degree.
Once that is done, research and choose a suitable preparation course (I did Barbri and feel it truly offers everything you could possibly need and more). Then, start grinding! There are typically two exam sessions, one in July and one in February – but new schedules are currently in place due to the pandemic and exams are now taken online.
An important advice I wish somebody stressed to me is: start gathering the documents for your admissions file early, take all other exams required early and find a project for your 50 hours of pro bono as soon as possible – even before your exam or before your results come in.
It took me an entire year to do so only after getting my results.
Lastly, you have worked at a number of arbitration firms based in Paris – any advice for the young law student who is looking to break into the field of international investment arbitration?
Be patient and do not give up. To date, I believe I have sent over 100 applications – and so have most of my peers.
This is something I think none of us expect when starting out and it is prone to disappoint and make us take it personally, as a reflection of our competence. This is not true!
Most applications do go unanswered, simply because law firms are flooded with similar inquiries daily.
One advice I would give is to be creative and find ways to stand out.
Also, it is not a time to be shy and coy – it is best to come forward and be specific with what it is you are seeking and why you would be a good fit. Reach out to your connections, ask for advice and constantly perfect your profile. Learning new languages provides a significant advantage and targeting firms which may have ongoing cases in your region/language might be a good strategy.
In the end, it is a difficult field to get into and you are bound to do a lot of internships before ‘landing’ a job. Afterwards, I would say the most important thing is to remain positive and motivated, and find the energy to give every task your best. Being rigorous, organised and proactive is crucial – try not to rush tasks and learn to prioritize, always asking and knowing what timeline you are working with !
Finally, never underestimate the benefits (both personal and professional) of taking time to engage with your team. We are spending most of our waking hours in the office, so it is only natural that team players and compatible personalities will be preferred in the hiring process.
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Amicus Partners 